I found this great interview, he mentioned to Lisa and Michael relationship.A conversation with David Nordahl: A look at Michael as artist, subject, Intellectual, daddy, friend and survivor
The above may seem like a long subtitle. But what I learned from my time with David Nordahl is that his 20-year friendship with Michael Jackson encompassed all of the above. He was in a unique position to get to know Michael on several levels, as a subject of his own paintings, as an artist in his own right (though David explained why he did not believe Michael could have ever really made a go of it as an artist), and as a business partner and creative co-designer (including many of the rides at Neverland and future plans for Neverland). But he also got to spend a lot of quality personal time with Michael and his children. He was there during Michael’s first marriage to Lisa Marie, and witnessed the nature of their relationship first-hand. After twenty years, he probably knew Michael as well as anyone.
His portraits of Michael, usually depicting him in various romantic, Renaissance styled settings, are some of the most iconic and recognizable images to fans, but have also come with their share of controversy, beginning with Martin Bashir’s insistence on including as many shots as possible of the painting “Michael,” depicting a semi-nude image of Michael surrounded by cherubs. The unfortunate controversy surrounding much of David’s work for Michael was one of the things that would be addressed. But before that, where to begin?
DAVID AND ME
Well, for starters, David and I have some common ground. Before he became Michael’s personally commissioned artist, Nordahl was primarily known as a painter of Apache scenes and villages. His paintings depicting authentic details of Apache dress, custom and culture had already won him a following-including Steven Spielberg, who had a Nordahl painting in his office depicting an Apache village under attack by US troops. In the painting, one soldier, apart from the others, attempts to shield two children with one arm, while with the other, he reaches out as to stop the attack.
This was the painting Michael saw, which prompted him to call David up for a meeting. Of course, I was already aware of that story going into the interview. But it made for a good springboard to start the conversation rolling.
I asked David where his interest in Native American culture sprang from, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that David, like myself, is part Native. (Most people do not believe it just to look at me, but I am over an eighth Cherokee, an active Echota Cherokee tribal member, and used to be a Jingle Dress dancer on the Southeastern powwow circuit, something I still do when I have the time). David’s Native ancestry comes from his father, who grew up on the Lakota (Sioux) reservation and fought fires with the Indian firefighters.
THIS PAINTING BY DAVID NORDAHL DEPICTS THE SURRENDER OF GERONIMO. MICHAEL LOVED DAVID'S NA PAINTINGS, BUT FELT HE NEEDED TO "BROADEN" HIS "SCOPE" TO INCLUDE GLOBAL HUMANITY
Nordahl was carving out something of a reputation for himself as an authentic painter of Native life when he got the call from Michael, who was so impressed by the painting in Spielberg’s office that he wanted to set up a meeting with the artist.
I asked, “ What do you think drew him to the painting? What qualities about this painting was he expressly impressed with?”
“He never told me,” David replied. “The painting depicted a cavalry killing women and children, so I think it was the empathy he was drawn to.”
“Was Michael himself very knowledgable of Native culture?” I wanted to know if that might not have been some of the appeal; after all, Michael himself had some Native ancestry-quite a bit, in fact; Choctaw on Joe’s side, Cherokee on Katherine’s side.
“No.” The answer came pretty emphatically. But then he also explained, “That is to say, what he knew about it was no more or less than what the average person knows. But he did have a very good overview knowledge of Native culture.”
“In other words, he would have at least had a good, general working knowledge of the belief systems and values of most tribes.”
“Oh, absolutely. Michael was aware of everything. He was a voracious reader.”
This led to a brief discussion of Earth Song. I said that much of the lyrics and imagery of Earth Song seemed based on the Native American concept of the “earth changes,” a prophecy held by most tribes in which the earth will cleanse and purge itself by a series of disastrous, cataclysmic events. Many tribes believe we are already in the time of the “changes.” In Lakota prophecy, it was predicted that the “Earth Changes” would be heralded by the birth of the white buffalo calf. (In 1992, a white buffalo calf was born, but subsequently died). Cherokees, too, have a version of the Earth Changes prophecy.
“Every tribe has their own version of the prophecy,” David said.
“Was Michael aware of the prophecy?”
EARTH SONG DEPICTS THE SAME KIND OF CATACLYSMIC EVENTS AND PURGING AS PREDICTED IN THE NATIVE AMERICAN PROPHECIES OF "THE EARTH CHANGES"
“Yes, he was.” He also agreed when I said that it seemed at least a seed for Earth Song’s stage concept (with the tanks, soldiers, and desperate villagers, and Michael as the Christ-like peace figure between them) may have been planted by that painting.
But really, overall, it was not any particular interest in Native culture that drew Michael to David’s work. Michael was looking at a much bigger, and broader, picture.
He asked me, “Why do you only paint Native Americans?” He thought that David should go for bigger subject matter; something with a broader scope. Or perhaps, this was his way of saying, “Don’t limit yourself to one culture, or one narrow niche. The world is a much bigger place than that.” His goal, from the begining, was to push David towards a more global view.
The story of how Michael and David met is an interesting, and funny, one. Michael wasn’t above making up a white lie to get what he wanted. “He told me he wanted to take art lessons,” David said. David was put in touch with Michael’s peeps, who arranged the meeting. This was in 1988, during the Bad tour, and David was given a list of tour stops to choose from. “I chose Denver, because it was the closest.” So as the date for the Denver show drew near, David meticulously packed all of his supplies, with the understanding that he was going to be giving art lessons.
Their intial conversation, according to David, had gone something like this:
Michael: Do you give painting lessons?
David: No, I don’t.
But Michael, turning on his best charm, managed to convince David that he sincerely wanted to learn. Finally, David relented and agreed to a meeting.
But it was obvious from the get-go that lessons were the furthest thing from Michael’s mind.
A limo picked David up and whisked him to their meeting. He had packed all of his art supplies, still under the illusion that he was going to be giving lessons. He said the security guards came down with Michael and hung around for the first few minutes, until Michael told them it was okay; they could leave. There was also a young lady whom Michael was sending out to buy the conchos that he liked to wear on his belt (remember, we’re talking Bad era!).
“Make sure you get your 20% off,” he told her, referring, evidently, to a 20% discount she was supposed to get on the conchos.
DAVID SIGNS AUTOGRAPHS AT THE FANVENTION
During that first meeting, they talked a lot about art and many other things. But there was no indication that Michael was seriously interested in any lessons.
So why go to all the elaborate ruse of pretending he wanted art lessons?
“He just wanted to meet me,” David laughed. “He wanted to set up a meeting, to see if we would hit if off.”
But I knew that Michael did have an interest in art, as evidenced by his own sketches and self-portraits. I had also read that, at some point, David did give Michael lessons-or tried to. The sessions usually ended up in frustration.
The problem? Michael’s own sense of perfectionism, the quality that made him a genius with his music and dance, may have been the very thing that hampered him most when it came to drawing and painting.
“He got frustrated too easily,” David said. “He wanted it to be right on the first try.” Ultimately, Michael could not deal with the frustration when what he envisioned in his mind’s eye did not come out as he wanted on the canvas.
But what did David make of Michael’s raw talent, based on the sketches and other things he has done?
“Do you think he could have been a great artist if he had applied himself? He did seem to have the talent.”
“I told him once, he had the ability to be a great artist. But it would take years to develop. I told him he could be agreat artist if he would be willing to give up his music career, and just devote time to his art and nothing else.”
“Well, I think we both know that wasn’t going to happen,” I laughed. Michael may have enjoyed dabbling in art, but I think it’s safe to say that music career wasn’t about to take a backseat.
MICHAEL DID THIS SKETCH OF CHAPLIN WHEN HE WAS ONLY 9 YEARS OLD. HE HAD ABILITY, BUT LACKED PATIENCE. "HE GOT FRUSTRATED TOO EASILY"-DAVID NORDAHL
But what if he had lived? I could certainly see him, perhaps, in his golden years, with the madness and glory of his stage years behind him, quietly but passionately pursuing that path. I asked what he knew of the rumor that Michael had been planning to go back to school to study art, supposedly at Paris’s prompting. “He never told me that,” said David, indicating the story was news to him.
Nevertheless, Michael’s interest in art ran deep. “Diana Ross was the one who got him interested in art. She took him to museums.”
Going to art galleries would also become a favorite pasttime for Michael and David, though wih Michael, going anywhere in public was always a challenge-usually, one that ended in chaos. As we’ve heard so many times, it almost always involved a lot of cooperation from the owners; their willingness to close things down to the public, and so forth. Once, they were visiting an art gallery that, in order to access, meant walking past a glass partition where a beauty shop was located. Some of the ladies recognized Michael.
“He used to say he could fool everyone with his disguises, except for the women. The women would recognize his walk; they had it all down.”
Before long, the entire window was lined with women in their smocks; their hair in curlers and pins; faces pressed to the glass, trying desperately to get a glimpse!
I wanted to ask about the concepts of the paintings he did for Michael, but that turned out to be a much more complex subject than one answer could give. I would get much more insight into that process during his Q&A, when he presented an entire slide show of some of his most well known paintings and sketches of Michael (and some not so well-known) and gave the story behind each painting, from inception to finished product. But as far as the concepts for each painting, it was usually a collaborative effort. “Michael did some, and we did some together. He had these wonderful ideas.”
Another topic that we addressed, but which David also delved into in more depth during his Q&A, was the controversial aspect of many of the paintings. “This is a difficult subject to bring up,” I said, “because I personally think all of the paintings are beautiful. But I don’t have to tell you, that there are some people who have called works like Field Of Dreams and Michael as ‘pedo art.’” After the allegations, of course, the media was looking for anything and everything that would serve as “proof” that Michael was a pedophile. The fact that so many of the paintings featured children, usually with Michael as an almost Christ-like figure among them, caused many of Nordahl’s works to fall under scrutiny.
MARTIN BASHIR HAD A FIELD DAY WITH THE PAINTING "MICHAEL." BUT DAVID NORDHAL HAD A FEW CHOICE WORDS FOR BASHIR-OR MORE, APTLY, ONE WORD
“Martin Bashir, as you know, made a point of cutting away to the ‘Michael’ painting every chance he got-”
“A__hole! Pardon my language.”
I assured him no apologoes were necessary.
“Martin Bashir is an a_hole.”
“I tried to tell Michael not to do that show. But he was convinced Martin Bashir would do for him what he did for Princess Diana.”
This led to a brief discussion about Bashir allegedly falsifying Diana’s brother’s bank statements, in order to blackmail her into the interview. “Have you heard about that?”
“No, I have not. But it doesn’t surprise me.”
As I said, this subject would come up again during the Q&A. But once you know the actual stories behind the paintings, you realize how ridiculous those accusations are. For example, when it came to Field Of Dreams, Michael simply wainted a painting that would depict all the children of all nationalities all over the world. These were themes in keeping with his vision for the Heal The World Foundation (which David also painted the logo for, of the shattered earth with a band-aid strip across it). In Field Of Dreams, the idea was to depict all races and all nationalities of children, doing what children do-even, yes, being naughty, but in the innocent ways of childhood. For example, the little boy seen peeking beneath the little girl’s dress was Michael’s idea. “He said, ‘Kids do stuff like that.’”
But after the allegations, the media had a field day. Nordahl says he was constantly bombarded by tabloid and media requests, some even offering up to as much as “$25,000″ to “dish dirt” on Michael. True or not, it didn’t matter. “They would want to know who the kids in the paintings were, what their names were,” he said. “Well, we couldn’t give them any names, because none of the kids really existed. They were all made up.”
Well, with a few exceptions. In Field Of Dreams, Nordahl actually used a photo of his wife as a small child as the model for the little girl you see to the right of Michael, visible just beneath his arm. Elsewhere in the painting, for those of you who are familiar with it, you may recall that there is a little African-American girl eating a vanilla ice cream cone. Well, look close. That, too, is David’s wife…but no, she didn’t change race or colors! David simply made the change for her. “I decided to use my wife here, as well,” he said, showing us the little black girl slurping the cone. “The only difference was, I just made her black instead of white.”
That wasn’t the only surprise. Most of Nordahl’s paintings (usually at Michael’s insistence) are filled with such little surprises and secrets. For instance, while showing us several of the paintings during his Q&A slide show, he would tell us to look closely to see if we could pick out Elizabeth Taylor, or Fred Astaire, or Macauley Culkin, or any number of other hidden friends and celebrities. You would be surprised at some of the places they pop up in David’s paintings, if you look closely and know what to look for! Michael, he said, loved the idea of having “hidden surprises” in the paintings, and would often make a game of it with the kids who came to Neverland, asking if they could find this or that hidden thing or person in the paintings.
“Sometimes Michael would tell me where he wanted the hidden surprises to go,” David said. “But then sometimes we would hide them so well, that even we would forget where we had hidden them.”
I also asked him about Camelot, the painting he did for Michael and Lisa. I was aware that working on the piece had given him a rare opportunity to glimpse what their actual relationship was like. “Oh yeah. I spent two weeks with them.”
“So what were they like together?”
“Absolutely fabulous. Just a lovely couple.”
“So based on your observations, you do think they were really in love?”
“Not a doubt. They were beautiful together. It broke my heart when they divorced.”
MICHAEL AND LISA. DAVID REMEMBERS THEM AS "A LOVELY COUPLE, VERY MUCH IN LOVE. IT BROKE MY HEART WHEN THEY DIVORCED."-DAVID NORDAHL
His description is an interesting contrast from those who have called the marriage a sham. But it’s been corroboarated by most of Michael’s friends who were around the couple. At any rate, two weeks under the same roof with them would have been more than ample time to witness if anything seemed “off” or phony about the relationship. David not only loved Michael and Lisa individually, he loved them together, as a couple. But Lisa, he said, “came into the marriage with her own children” and I got the feeling that perhaps, as has been so often stated, this was the biggest reason for their eventual breakup. She didn’t want to have more.
In the meantime, Camelot was left unfinished. “Michael wasn’t happy with the castle. He wanted it to be more fanciful.”
Before Nordahl could deliver on making the castle “more fanciful,” the fairy tale was over. “It just made me so sad that they broke up.”As Michael’s privately commissioned artist, Nordahl also worked closely with Michael on many of his envisioned projects, from Heal The World, to what would have been Michael’s movie production company (Lost Boys Productions) to future plans for Neverland. Neverland was always a work-in-progress, and as Nordahl showed us his slides, among them were the sketched plans for what eventually would have been a Neverland water park. It was sad to realize that there was still so much unrealized vision to Neverland; still so many more things Michael wanted to do. Judging from the sketches, the water park would have been a beautiful, spectacular vista of waterfalls, wave pools and other aquatic delights!
“He never stopped trying to make it into a better place for the sick children who came there,” David said, noting that his plans even included Jumbotrons that would show cartoons non-stop, all through the night, for the sick children who couldn’t sleep. “Michael understood that for a sick child, it’s not easy to sleep at night. He wanted them to have cartoons playing so that when they woke up in pain, and couldn’t sleep, they would have something to watch. He was always thinking of those kids, and how to make things better for them.”
Nothing was done cheaply at Neverland. Even the horses on the carousel were designed to be a unique experience for every child or person who rode them. “Each horse had its own poem inscripted on it.”
During the slide show, as I mentioned, David took us on a virtual guide through many of his portraits and best known works, giving us the stories behind most of them. Just a few of the most interesting facts:
The original Triptyche painting had an 8″ center and was over 12 feet wide.
Michael did not actually pose for most of the paintings. Instead, David usually painted from a photograph. But it was sometimes hard to get good photographs because “Michael didn’t take good photos when he wasn’t being Michael.” In other words, when he wasn’t being “on” as Michael Jackson. Sometimes just getting a good photo to work from could be challenging.
THE CHARCOAL SKETCHES WERE ALWAYS DARKER ON TOP, LIGHTER ON THE BOTTOM. "HE WOULDN'T STAND STILL, SO HIS FEET WERE A BLUR. THE LIGHTER COLOR REPRESENTED THIS."
But Michael did pose for some of the charcoal sketches, such as this well known Nordahl sketch of him from his Panther Dance routine. Then, it was a challenge getting him to stand still. “You’ll notice the sketches are darker at the top, and lighter at the bottom.” He said this was largely the result of him trying to keep up with Michael’s moving feet, which would always become a blur.
While working on the “Michael” painting, Nordahl had to photograph the painting at various stages of completion. He kept Michael’s face blocked out of the portrait so that when the film went to the drug store to be developed, no one would know who the subject of the painting was. (We saw the “face blotted out” version of the painting during the slide show).
Lost Boys Production was the production company that Evan Chandler hoped to get in on. David told the audience that Evan tried to extort the money from Michael once he found out he would not be a part of Lost Boys Production.
David’s stories, overall, depicted a friend who was very loyal; very sweet, humble and considerate, but who could also be very demanding. For example, Michael loved the painting “Michael” so much that he had it shipped all over the world. Anywhere that he was going to be for an extended time. Just before 9/11, the painting was shipped from Paris, France and was damaged in the process. Apparently, careless handling had resulted in the painting being scraped. The damage was most noticeable on Michael’s face.
Michael was very upset, and wanted the painting repaired-as in, immediatly.
Except it was right after 9/11, and getting a flight out to LA wasn’t exactly that easily done. “I sat for hours, in a deserted airport.”
But eventually, he made it to LA and the damage to the painting was retouched.
Michael’s perfectionist ways sometimes caused other problems, as well. He described an incident that occurred once, after a recording session, when Michael had been joined by Slash and some other rockers. “These were all guys that were used to just going in the recording studio and laying a track down in one take or two.” Michael was genuinely hurt and puzzled that these guys would be ticked off after being asked to make take after take. “All these people are mad at me,” he said.
But David also carries many other memories of his longtime friend. He remembers Michael’s completely zany, off the wall sense of humor. He told a story about one time when he was trying to get through to Michael on the phone. I don’t recall now what the purpose of this meeting was, but as he told it, it was very urgent that he get through to Michael. However, he had the misfortune to get “this woman with this very grating, annoying Brooklyn accent” who refused to let him through. This went on indefinitely. Finally, he met up with Michael and started to tell him the story. “I would have gotten here sooner, but I was held up by this awful, annoying woman who talked like this (mocking her nasally, irritating voice, which I could imagine sounding just like Fran Drescher from The Nanny). Michael started to giggle, as the truth slowly dawned on David that he’d been “had.” “Michael, was that you?”
“What do you think?” Michael said, talking in “her” voice.
"PRINCE, THE BOY KING." MICHAEL HAD PLANS TO DO SIMILAR PORTRAITS FOR PARIS AND BLANKET, BUT DID NOT LIVE TO HAVE THEM DONE. IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY, YOU CAN SEE MICHAEL'S IMAGE IN THE GOLD EDGING ON THE CHAIR.
He also has wonderful memories of Michael’s relationship with his children, which he witnessed firsthand. One of the portraits he did for Michael was a portrait of Prince, “The Boy King,” which depicted Prince as a toddler, asleep on his throne.
But why had no portraits been done of Paris or Blanket?
“We were going to do portraits of them,” David said, “but Michael wanted to wait until they were a little older.” Sadly, of course, Michael died before those planned portraits ever reached fruition.
During the Q&A, David repeated the very funny story I had read before, about how he and Michael and the kids “snuck in” to see The Day After Tomorrow at a shopping mall theatre in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It was a typical, crowded shopping mall and the small theatre was packed. Yet, miraculously, they pulled it off. “I took the kids to get popcorn. Michael waited until the lights went down, and slipped in through a side door. He was wearing these red, silk lounging pants, like pajamas,” he laughed, noting it’s still hard to believe how he escaped notice, especially in that get-up.
He was also there when Michael came to him, all excited because Blanket had spoken his very first sentence. Michael, gushing like the proud dad he was, said, “Blanket just said his first sentence!”
“What did he say?”
He said, “Where is Dave?”
Their 20-year friendship included many adventures. During extensive road trips, Michael would carry a bucket for roadside relief emergencies. He was Michael Jackson, after all, so stopping at roadside gas stations to use the mens’ room was usually not an option. I can only imagine that it’s kind of hard to continue to see someone as a world famous superstar and icon, when you’ve seen them peeing in a bucket by the side of the road. That kind of has a way of putting things in perspective, for sure.
He also remembers his friend Michael Jackson as someone who “never complained,” despite the cruel hand he had been dealt with his skin disease, vitiligo. We talked about that somewhat because I was curious after having read Nordahl’s USA Today interview where he mentioned that Michael’s vitiligo was already in a very advanced state when he first met him-in 1988!
At that time, in 1988, he described Michael as someone whose face was already splotched like a cow, and that the effects of the disease were plainly visible on his body. I was very interested to know more about this, because to the world, Michael Jackson in 1988 still looked relatively “normal.” Yes, we could tell he was getting lighter. But it was not yet blatantly obvious that something drastic was going on.
“So you’re saying, as early as 1988, he was already splotched over a large percentage of his body, including his face?”
“Oh yes. Yes. When I met him, it was already all the way down the right side of his neck. And on his right hand, as far as I could see, going all the way up his arm.” But he did note it was hard to know how much further the disease had progressed up his arm, “since he always wore those long-sleeved, corduroy shirts.” Those, of course, were the well known (mostly red; occasionally blue) long-sleeved shirts that he began wearing in the late 80′s and early 90′s. The shirts came in handy for concealing his condition.
“Of course, as he developed more blotches, he had to go with lighter and lighter makeup to cover it.”
We discussed how vitiligo completely robs the skin of pigment. I mentioned how even Oprah Winfrey had said that looking at Michael’s skin was “like looking at someone who was transluscent; you could see all the way through to the blue veins.”
He said that Oprah’s assessment was true. That’s what it was like.
It was never a case of Michael wanting to be white. “White people have pigment,” he said, which is something I have also said on many occasions when I still run across those who think Michael bleached his skin. “Look at your skin, and look at mine. But now…look at that piece of paper there.” He pointed to the sheet of typing paper I was jotting my notes on. “That sheet of paper right there…imagine someone whose skin is as white as that paper.”
“Michael always considered himself very ugly,” he said.
I said I found it so hard to believe why. “He was beautiful,” I said.
“But he never saw it that way. He thought he was extremely ugly. He was always wanting to look like what he called “normal people.”
You would think that a disease like vitiligo would have completely crushed such a fragile self-esteem. But it didn’t.
“I never once heard him complain. He never said, ‘Why me?’
The impression left by our conversation was of a man who quietly carried the cross he had been dealt in life, and who did so with dignity, grace and fortitude. He did not complain, and did not wallow in self-pity. He continued to work, to create, to enjoy life, and to strive for his vision of making the world a better place. Perhaps, I finally came away with a better understanding of why Michael never elected to become a spokesperson for the disease. Michael had a much bigger plan, and much bigger vision, for what he hoped to accomplish with his life and with the platform he had been given.
Vitiligo was just an annoying gnat that he was determined wasn’t going to slow him down, or stop him. That is why I added in the subtitle of this article, “survivor.” Because David’s words painted a picture of just that.
For twenty years, David saw his friend fight the ravages of this disease, along with all of the misunderstanding and ridicule that came with it. “He always knew who he was, he knew he was black.”
Apparently, it was the rest of the world that needed reminding of that fact. Not Michael.
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